Juval Aviv's Espionage Blog

Q & A with Juval

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Interviewer:      Good Morning!

JA:  Good Morning!

Interviewer:  Thanks for speaking with us.

JA:     My pleasure!

Interviewer:      Congratulations on Max being released in paperback and the publishing of Flight 103 this year.

JA:          Yes, the Sam Green series seems to be doing very well.

Interviewer:    These novels are based on actual cases that you have worked on, is that correct?

JA:    Yes, Max was based on my investigation of the murder of British media tycoon, Robert Maxwell.  Flight 103 was based on the work that I did for Pan American Airlines after the bombing of Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland.

Interviewer:    You’ve answered this question before, but why do you fictionalize these stories, why not an autobiography or memoir?

JA:    There are aspects of these cases that I can’t now and may never be able to talk about.  There are sources that I can’t identify, clients that I need to protect.  By writing about these cases as fiction, it gives me the room that I need to tell a complete story without jeopardizing myself or anyone else in the process.

Interviewer:      One reason that we wanted to interview you is because while you’ve done many interviews about the books and what inspired them, there’s not a great deal of biographical information out there about you, the author.

JA:      Well, there is actually quite a lot of information out there about me, but there is as much fiction as fact.

Interviewer:      Exactly.  Well should we start from the beginning?

JA:          Wherever you would like.

Interviewer:      Where and when were you born?

JA:      I was born in Rishon Le Zion in Israel in 1947 and one of the first generation to be born and come of age in the new, post WWII Israel.  I spent several years in the late 1950’s living in Frankfurt, while my parents cared for my maternal grandfather and then spent the equivalent of my high school years at a kibbutz back in Israel.

Interviewer:     Do you speak German?

JA:    Yes.  I speak English, Hebrew and German.  I was fluent in German at one time.  I think it’s much easier to pick up a language as a young child.  I can still carry on a conversation, but I’ve lost a bit of it.

Interviewer:    What did your parents do?

JA:    My mother was a housewife.  For most of my childhood I thought that my father was a businessman of some sort.  He travelled frequently, supposedly dealing in imports and exports.  As it turns out, he was actually an agent with what eventually became the Mossad, the Israeli Secret Service.

Interviewer:    When did you find out about that?

JA:    Just before I left the kibbutz to join the army.  I met a friend’s father who knew my father.  I knew that that friend’s father was in the Mossad.  I started asking questions and over time it came out.

Interviewer:    Did your father ever talk to you very much about his experiences?

JA:    No.  While he was active, he could not speak about what he was doing.  And after he left the service, I think he felt a bit lost and was embittered by how poorly he felt the agency treated him when he was no longer of use.  He did not speak of it very much.

Interviewer:      So, after the kibbutz, you entered the army?

JA:    Yes, it was mandatory then in Israel and still is.  I served for several years, rising to the rank of Captain.

Interviewer:      Did you plan on entering the Secret Service after the army?

JA:    No, not at all.  It is not the sort of thing that you apply for.  They come for you.  I was actually hoping to get a job with El Al, the Israeli Airline.  It had always been my dream to be a pilot.  I did not have the academic qualifications in science and math to do that, but I hoped that I could work for them in some capacity that would allow me to travel.  I had always had a great curiosity about the world outside of Israel and my time in Germany as a child only strengthened that.

Interviewer:    How were you recruited then?

JA:    I received an envelope at home with instructions to meet a man at a certain time at a rather nondescript office.  Very vague, but I suspected what it was.  It was my intention to turn them down, but their talk of travel and career opportunities excited me.  I was eventually offered a place in their training program and I accepted.

Interviewer:    What was training like?

JA:    It was very rigorous, much more so than the army.  We trained very hard physically and with weapons, coding, computers, driving and the like.  About half of the recruits drop out or were asked to leave.

Interviewer:    How long had you been with the Mossad before you were given the Black September or Wrath of God assignment?

JA:    About three years.  I was then assigned to lead a team of agents tracking down and dispatching members of the Black September terrorist squad which was responsible for the assassination of 11 Israeli athletes at the Olympic Games in Munich.  The code name for the operation was Wrath of God.

Interviewer:    It is surprising that assignment would be given to such a young agent.

JA:    Yes, and no.  On one hand it was a very big assignment, but on the other hand Israel was a very young country itself and had already weathered many wars and conflicts.  Consequently, Israel had and still has a very young, very well trained army and special forces.  Also, I think that this is the sort of job where it actually helps to be very young.  Young people think they are invincible, they have no sense of their own mortality.  When you are older and have a family, you start to realize how fragile life is.  The job required confidence and an ability to not second guess decisions and not worry that you would almost certainly be killed.  In other words, it helped to be young and dumb.  Also, when you assemble a team that is going to be operating outside the borders of Israel, one of the most important requirements is languages.  Anyone can be trained to pull a trigger, but it is much more complicated to find someone who can blend successfully into other societies and still carry out the mission.  I spoke several languages.

Interviewer:    Would you go through that experience again?

JA:    Would I do what I did again?  Yes.  While it’s certainly not a time that I recall fondly, under the same circumstances, I would do it again.  I believe that that response to the terrorist attacks was the correct one.

Interviewer:    When did you move to New York?

JA:    1975.  I had ended the mission, I was done with the Mossad and I was ready for a fresh start.  America had always been a dream of mine.  It wasn’t easy at first.  I had no credentials.  I couldn’t talk about anything that I had done for the past several years.  Eventually I decided to stick with what I know and to use the contacts that I had, and in 1979 I started my company, Interfor, specializing in corporate intelligence and security consulting.  I have been doing that ever since.

Interviewer:    In 1984 George Jonas wrote Vengeance, the story of the Wrath of God operation as told to him by you.  Your identity was not revealed in the novel and the book was eventually the inspiration for the movie, Munich, by Steven Spielberg.  You were also a consultant on the movie.  Why did you decide to tell that story?

JA:    Personally, it was liberating to be able to tell the story, even anonymously.  It was the most extraordinary, pivotal, formative experience of my life and to not even be able to tell my family about it was difficult.  More importantly, I thought that the story needed to be told.  Terrorism as a political tool was and is a growing phenomenon and I felt that Israel’s response to the Munich massacre was something that needed to be discussed.  It was something that people could learn a great deal from.

Interviewer:    Since the release of Munich, you have been more open about your involvement in Wrath of God.  Why is that?

JA:    Enough time has passed.  It’s been more than 30 years and so much has happened since then that people don’t care enough about me to come after me, legally or otherwise.

Interviewer:      There are people who question your background and say that you were never in the Mossad, that you were a cab driver and that your only security experience was a short stint at El Al airlines from which you were fired.

JA:    Ha!  Yes, I have heard that as well.  I have to say that if that was the extent of my experience before I started my company, then I am one incredibly successful con artist.  To build a successful company that has lasted 30 years on a collection of lies would be unheard of, not to mention highly unlikely.  I couldn’t do what I do, I couldn’t have done the work that I have done for the past three decades, if I did not know what I was doing and if I didn’t have the contacts that I have.  Additionally, I have worked with government agencies, Fortune 500 companies and a lot of the world’s top law firms.  Very intelligent, very successful people have hired me time and time again.  Even the best con artist can’t fool everyone.  The people that I have worked for have been satisfied with my credentials and with the work that I have done for them and that is enough for me.

Admittedly, I don’t have the sort of resume that you can verify by calling Human Resources.  It is very easy to call me a liar.  But I am who I say that I am and I stand by the work that I have done.

Interviewer:    Since the work that you did for Pan American Airlines on the Flight 103 bombing, some American intelligence officers have claimed that you are a fraud as well.  How do you respond?

JA:    The FBI investigated me soon after I moved to New York to make sure that I was not a spy for Israel.  They determined that I had been in Israeli intelligence and that I was no longer working for them as a spy.  Since then I have consulted with the FBI, the CIA, DEA and the IRS.  To this day, I am invited frequently to speak with groups of FBI officers and trainees.

After my investigation of the Flight 103 bombing, I issued a report that claimed in part that the bomb had been smuggled on board the plane by a drug smuggling operation that was being supervised by a black ops group from the CIA.  Obviously, it was in the best interest of the U.S. government to discredit me.  I was called a fraud and a liar and they went as far as taking me to court on trumped up fraud charges on behalf of one of my clients.  A client, might I add, who had been satisfied with the work that I did.  There were some hard years after that, but the case was eventually thrown out of court and most of us have moved on.  As I said before, I am often invited to speak at FBI functions now.  But, there are still a couple of people from that time who rush to denounce me any chance that they get.  It is interesting, though, that the case made by the U.S. and British governments after the Lockerbie bombing is now falling apart and the men that were convicted of the crime may soon be freed.  My theories are really the only ones that have stood the test of time.

Interviewer:    Back to the books…why Sam Green?  Why use a nom de plume?

JA:    From a marketing standpoint, Sam Green has a more familiar ring to it for American and British book buyers than Juval Aviv.  But, additionally, I have two careers.  The majority of my time is spent on my company, Interfor, and it is nice to have a layer of separation between those two worlds.

Interviewer:      Are there more books in the works?

JA:      Yes, I am working on some ideas, but there is no publishing date at the moment.

Interviewer:      Will these be based on real events like Max and Flight 103?

JA:      Yes, there are several cases that I have worked on that I am considering using for more Sam Green novels.

Interviewer:    Well, we’re anxiously waiting to read them.  Thank you for the interview.

JA:    You’re welcome.  Thank you!

One Response to “Q & A with Juval”

  1. Bethanie Norrid Says:
    July 6th, 2010 at 9:50 pm

    Hey, i am the owner of mota-atom.com .Thank’s for sharing this posting.This is very helpful and informative material.Good post and keep it up friend.

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